Curse

Holly Herro · Dec 05, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Well, you COULD bring them in, and the people that don't want to use them don't have too.

Please for the love of god, don't say something like "It's too tempting.." if you do, go grow some self control newb

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I know what the point is - but what's it matter if you can't find anyone to play with? With heroes and henchies, you don't have to have that worry.

Well there will be people to play with. Those people who prefer to pug will still go and pug. Only those who want to use 7 heroes will use 7 heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But it's not using my full strength. I want to test my full strength and ability, unhindered, and to its fullest.

Your ability isnt effected.
Infact by giving yourself a disadvantage in terms of skills and weapons etc you put more requirement on your ability.

Im going to go back to gold for another example here.

If you take a top golfer and give them some cheap clubs that makes it more challenging for them to win.
Their skill and ability remains exactly the same. The difference is they now have a disadvantage in terms of equipment, putting more of a challenge on their skill to perform well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That little snippet could get us into a whole other argument regarding PvE skills. Please don't go there.

Wasnt really aimed just at pve skills, same applies for any skill that is a bit more powerful than others. If you find it to easy using that, you can always not use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In Guild Wars, the skill is in the build. How well you do, how much ass you kick is all dependent on it. The build either works or it doesn't: If you gimp yourself too low then it just won't work. It's like trying to add 2 and 5 to get 15, no matter how hard you try you cannot turn that 2 into a 10.

Player skill comes into it as well. If you give a solid build to a poor player they will still perform poorly. As it is it takes more skill and tactical team building to come up with a build that works when at a disadvantage.
When you have 1 less player you need to cover for them without leaving a hole somewhere else.
When you have less armour you need to make up for that in your build at the cost of something else.
When you do less damage you either need to add more damage or be able to hold out in a fight for the extra time it takes to defeat the enemy.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Well there will be people to play with.

But how many? That's what matters, which is the whole point. It'll be dreadfully hard to pug if there are very very little people. You can't deny that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Your ability isnt effected.
Infact by giving yourself a disadvantage in terms of skills and weapons etc you put more requirement on your ability.

It still lies in the fact that it's an artificial challenge. If you play a game against some totally new person and you make it dreadfully hard on yourself, you won't learn anything. If you win, well you won against a newbie. If you lose, you probably made it too hard for yourself.

If it was as simple as "making it harder for yourself," ANet wouldn't have wasted their time with Hard Mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Player skill comes into it as well. If you give a solid build to a poor player they will still perform poorly. As it is it takes more skill and tactical team building to come up with a build that works when at a disadvantage.

Yes player skill comes into it, but the amount is nearly minuscule. And it's less "being skillful" and more just "knowing what to do."

"Player skill" does come into it, but it won't save you if your build sucks.

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But how many? That's what matters, which is the whole point. It'll be dreadfully hard to pug if there are very very little people. You can't deny that.

Lets say we have football and computer games.

Some people prefer football.
Some people prefer computer games.

Now the football team is struggling to get a team together.
Should we limit computer games to try and "encourage" people to play football?

If there arent enough people to pug, perhaps that tells you something about the number of people who want to pug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It still lies in the fact that it's an artificial challenge. If you play a game against some totally new person and you make it dreadfully hard on yourself, you won't learn anything. If you win, well you won against a newbie. If you lose, you probably made it too hard for yourself.

The point is, if you limit yourself to the point you will fail if you dont play your best (or even improve) thats a challenge. It doesnt matter if you limited yourself or the game did.

Its like giving someone a headstart in a race, shots in golf, extra lives in an fps etc etc.

You create the challenge for yourself by giving your opponent an advantage (or yourself a disadvantage) so that you have to play your best to win.

If it didnt work you wouldnt see mechanics like handicaps in sports, extra lives in games etc.

For the most part its no fun beating something thats easy (although some people enjoy it) and being able to make it as hard as you like is a great feature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yes player skill comes into it, but the amount is nearly minuscule. And it's less "being skillful" and more just "knowing what to do."

"Player skill" does come into it, but it won't save you if your build sucks.

But also a good build wont save a bad player.

You need both.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Lets say we have football and computer games.

Some people prefer football.
Some people prefer computer games.

Now the football team is struggling to get a team together.
Should we limit computer games to try and "encourage" people to play football?

You've already asked me this question regarding ice cream. This thread is now officially going in circles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

If there arent enough people to pug, perhaps that tells you something about the number of people who want to pug.

It tells me one of two things:

It tells me that a person new to this game is going to have a hard time. When the game population is spread so thin as it is, when a lot of people would rather play by themselves and when you don't know how to play the game, it tells me that that person might not have a very good time.

It also tells me that the forced party system in Guild Wars sucks. Thankfully ANet saw this and won't be having a party be a requirement in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The point is, if you limit yourself to the point you will fail if you dont play your best (or even improve) thats a challenge. It doesnt matter if you limited yourself or the game did.

It still is to me (and apparently many others) to feel like solving your own puzzle. It's hard to suprise yourself or catch yourself off gaurd.

Can't say much besides agree to disagree in this aspect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

But also a good build wont save a bad player.

You need both.

When it's as easy as having to press random buttons, buttons in sequence, etc. then it becomes rather hard to be sucking with a good build.

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You've already asked me this question regarding ice cream. This thread is now officially going in circles.

Well perhaps thats because you wont come out and answer it.

Right now you are saying its ok for solo players to be limited to ensure that pug groups dont have to wait as long to get groups.
But its not ok to make pug groups wait a bit longer so solo players arent limited.

Why is grouping more important? If there arent enough people to pug without waiting a long time for a team. Perhaps a lot of people dont want to pug. Perhaps they should be allowed to play in the manner they wish?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It tells me one of two things:

It tells me that a person new to this game is going to have a hard time. When the game population is spread so thin as it is, when a lot of people would rather play by themselves and when you don't know how to play the game, it tells me that that person might not have a very good time.

Well I played it straight with henchmen. Even better now there are heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When it's as easy as having to press random buttons, buttons in sequence, etc. then it becomes rather hard to be sucking with a good build.

If you take a caster with a poor build that doesnt know how to manage their energy and give them a good build. They still wont know how to manage their energy and will still perform poorly.

If you take a monk with a poor build who just generally doesnt know how to monk and give them a good build. They will still generally not know how to monk.

If you take a warrior with a poor build who likes to charge into groups and is happy to attack warriors in stances and give him a good build. He will still charge into groups and attack warriors in stances.

And thats just the more basic of gameplay elements. Theres even more ways players can still screw up with a good build.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Well perhaps thats because you wont come out and answer it.

Then I'll say what I said earlier: Pick a better analogy. A hometown football team can put up fliers, call people from different cities and states, numerous ways to fill their team, etc. You don't really have that in Guild Wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

But its not ok to make pug groups wait a bit longer so solo players arent limited.

Yes, because soloing limits pugging. The more people solo, the less people pug. The more people pug, uh, the more people pug? No effect on soloing whatsoever.

Also, as I've stated, time can be a rather large factor when it comes to pugs. The longer they have to wait for anything, the worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Why is grouping more important?

Because you the soloer can still experience the missions. Some pugs can't even do that. The only way that you yourself have said you are limited in is "your enjoyment." You can still get through all the missions, experience the whole game, etc. and still be successful with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

If there arent enough people to pug without waiting a long time for a team. Perhaps a lot of people dont want to pug. Perhaps they should be allowed to play in the manner they wish?

And they can. They can pick up four henchmen and their three heroes and go. There has to be a limit, of course. If I wanted to play as a pink dinosaur should I be given that right?

But the argument here is such: is the limit effective? Well given the fact that soloer's can get through games in Hard Mode, yeah I'd say it's fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Well I played it straight with henchmen. Even better now there are heroes.

Okay.

Ninian_Grace · Dec 05, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

they will eventually make a full hero team....like 2-3 weeks before GW2 is out. that way, they wont be losing anything.

but I am with you for the fact that they should put full hero teams. Because even if they feel people don't play together, if I don't like PUGs, I won't join PUGs no matter what. I can only have 3 heros in my team? perfect! ill take henchies along.

which makes me think of a saying of one of my old guild leader (Hey Jim!) : 5% of PUGs are great, 10% of PUGs are ok and 85% of PUGs make you wonder if the world will last another 25 years.

cheers to my guild leader!

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then I'll say what I said earlier: Pick a better analogy. A hometown football team can put up fliers, call people from different cities and states, numerous ways to fill their team, etc. You don't really have that in Guild Wars.

You have to take them in the context they are being used.
My point is why is it ok to limit one thing to encourage another because it doesnt have enough people who want to do it.
Surely those other people have chosen to go and play solo. Why is it their fault not enough people pug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yes, because soloing limits pugging. The more people solo, the less people pug. The more people pug, uh, the more people pug? No effect on soloing whatsoever.

I have no problem with people pugging.
Soloing also doesnt limit pugging. People who dont want to pug reduce pugs.
People who play in guilds reduce pugging. People who play with friends reduce pugging.

Other forms shouldnt be limited to try and make pugging more attractive. People should be able to play their own way, if someone wants to play solo let them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because you the soloer can still experience the missions. Some pugs can't even do that. The only way that you yourself have said you are limited in is "your enjoyment." You can still get through all the missions, experience the whole game, etc. and still be successful with it.

You are limited in that you can only take 3 heroes (or 4 changeable builds). Which then impacts on enjoyment by its reduction of playstyles and builds etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And they can. They can pick up four henchmen and their three heroes and go. There has to be a limit, of course. If I wanted to play as a pink dinosaur should I be given that right?

Lets not go down that road

Pretty much everything can taken out of context and proportion. It doesnt make for good discussion.
The point is its limited within the game confines not by the game confines themselves. Its an extra limit on something within the game.
Rather than limiting people on things outside the game, like being able to play pink dinosaurs or fly etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But the argument here is such: is the limit effective? Well given the fact that soloer's can get through games in Hard Mode, yeah I'd say it's fine.

You have been in this thread long enough to know its not about difficulty.

Lets face it I can spin it around and say even if it takes 30 mins to get a pug you could still finish the game. Therefore adding heroes would be fine, as long as there are at least 8 people who want to pug its possible for them to complete the game.

Obviousely thats absurd, you cant look at it based on just ability to complete the game.

Loviatar · Dec 05, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

You have been in this thread long enough to know its not about difficulty.

it is not about difficulty OR PUG as you can fill the remaining slots with henchies.

that leaves as stated by others BTW much faster/efficient clearing of areas in the game

farming and loot to be exact.

since leaving you henchies it is not an attempt to force pug.

it very definitely is a farming limit

Isileth · Dec 05, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

it is not about difficulty OR PUG as you can fill the remaining slots with henchies.

that leaves as stated by others BTW much faster/efficient clearing of areas in the game

farming and loot to be exact.

since leaving you henchies it is not an attempt to force pug.

it very definitely is a farming limit

Ok well first.

How can you farm with heroes? They take loot and I cant imagine they can run farming builds.

But secondly you apparantly didnt read back to where we mentioned what it was about.

Having 4 fixed builds limits the over teambuild, which limits playstyles and builds for the 4 controllable.
For example when the hench monks dont have condition and hex removal you are limited in that if you want it elsewhere you have to make room for it.
When your warrior hench is running charge and not even 8 skills, you need to make up for that damage or have less damage than a proper build.
When monks have no energy management and less than 8 skills your stuck with it unless you swap out something else for hero monks.

Its a huge limit on gameplay because of this.

Loviatar · Dec 05, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Ok well first.

How can you farm with heroes? They take loot and I cant imagine they can run farming builds.

thank you for asking that

some time ago it was stated that they would happily trade all 4 henchies for one more hero.

they would be able to clear many more high end (not elite) areas with that additional hero.

clear an area with a party of 5 (you and 4 heroes) with 3 empty non loot stealing slots for additional loot for you (exempted list)

that is how

zamial · Dec 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I do not think Loviatar understands how loot scaling works.

FYI its like this.

If you are in an area that the max # of people in the party is 4. then you will receive 1/4 the drops.

If you are in an area that the max party size is 12 you receive 1/12 of the drops.

Party size has NOTHING to do with drops, with some exceptions. see below.

-gold (money) is divided among party members equally as possible.

-restricted drop list.
some green items are restricted and drop less than normal, normal is 10% and restricted is 5%.

-unrestricted items
holiday event items
ectos
obsidian shards

Will all drop at set rates.

Party members that are grayed out in the party bar are ineligible for a drop.
So, you may have a greater drop rate if they are grayed out by getting their drops.

How on earth does having more heroes affect this in any way?
It does not.

Also heroes and hench have a bonus % to receive the rare drops, when they drop.

So, an all human group has a better chance of a rare drop per human than a mixed human and hero/hench group, altho drop rates are static.

Hench and heroes did not hurt the PUG, the PUG hurt the PUG. I say more Heroes please. If anyone in my alliance asks for help I help them, if they are in a pug I force them to leave the PUG because I will no longer waste my time on rude, leeching, mouthy, idiots. The # of heroes doesn't affect me but the more I can have in my party the more fun I have. To those that say guild wars is ment to be played with others, I do play with other people, my alliance.Also, look at the BMP PUG that! OH ya its SOLO!!!!!!

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

If you are in an area that the max # of people in the party is 4. then you will receive 1/4 the drops.

If you are in an area that the max party size is 12 you receive 1/12 of the drops.

What he means is that people can farm higher end areas rather quickly with 5 heroes. That means one person 4 heroes in an area that's meant for 8 people. So the monsters would be dropping a loot table of 8 while you just had 5 people in there.

That aside, back to some quote wars:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Surely those other people have chosen to go and play solo. Why is it their fault not enough people pug.

It's not their fault. It's the way that the game is set up that sucks. After ANet realized the world was getting bigger and that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Soloing also doesnt limit pugging. People who dont want to pug reduce pugs. People who play in guilds reduce pugging. People who play with friends reduce pugging.

Tricky waters. Guilds and friends' list may not be entirely shunned by ANet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

You are limited in that you can only take 3 heroes (or 4 changeable builds). Which then impacts on enjoyment by its reduction of playstyles and builds etc.

And a lack of people to play with reduces the chance of even being able to *play* with any build.

The point is its limited within the game confines not by the game confines themselves. Its an extra limit on something within the game.
Rather than limiting people on things outside the game, like being able to play pink dinosaurs or fly etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

You have been in this thread long enough to know its not about difficulty.

Actually, most people I've known wanting 4 additional heroes have said either "I can't do shit with the henchmen." That's really how this all started, with that thread started by Bhaav complaining how it's "impossible" to complete a large number of missions/areas on Hard Mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Obviousely thats absurd, you cant look at it based on just ability to complete the game.

That's what it really comes down to.

So you can't have a party of your own full choosing. You can't have a fully functional team build that you want. You have to settle for four henchmen whose skills you have no control over.

Well, PUGs are stuck with a lot of these problems, as well. You have no idea how well your team will work together. You can only ask them to bring what's best for the group if their very tolerant to that and if they have the proper skills unlocked. Last but not least, you have no control over them whatsoever.

Besides all that, there's still the chance that there'll be little to no besides you can be in that outpost. So if the person really wants to play through that mission he'll be forced to solo, something they don't want to do.

So yes, it comes down to simply being able to even being able to start the mission. In the time that it takes someone to organize a party of people in a semipopulated outpost, a person with heroes and henchies could probably've cleared said mission twice (three times if the PUG failed.) Time is a *huge* factor. That's why I use heroes and henchies: Because I don't have enough time to lose.

Your enjoyment of the game is limited, but not the success. Pugs risk both.

zamial · Dec 05, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What he means is that people can farm higher end areas rather quickly with 5 heroes. That means one person 4 heroes in an area that's meant for 8 people.

And they could do it even FASTER with 8. I still don't understand what effect on drops this has except for gold (money), or that they can get to end area chests. You don't get more drops for going into an area that the max # of people is 8 when the group is 5 of 8.

I will even include a make shift chart:

the area party size is 8.

your team size is 1 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 2 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 3 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 4 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 5 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 6 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 7 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.
your team size is 8 of 8, you get 1/8 the drops.

with exceptions, see my post above.

The only reason I included this is to diswade people from using drops to justify not adding in extra heroes. As this is a discussion about adding heroes not drops.

Loviatar · Dec 05, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

I do not think Loviatar understands how loot scaling works.

FYI its like this.

If you are in an area that the max # of people in the party is 4. then you will receive 1/4 the drops.

If you are in an area that the max party size is 12 you receive 1/12 of the drops.

wrong on almost every point.

the devs have stated it is a sliding scale giving the solo player roughlt twice what they would get in a full group

But let's hear it from the design team itself, with this latest Dev Update:

Quote:

Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Party size has NOTHING to do with drops, with some exceptions. see below.

DEVS SAY THIS

Quote:

Some players have been concerned about the loot scaling aspect of this week's update. They wonder whether the fact that drops are scaled according to party size will substantially affect their gameplay experience and whether it will impact upon their ability to acquire wealth in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Also heroes and hench have a bonus % to receive the rare drops, when they drop.

where did you hear this garbage anyway?

Loviatar · Dec 05, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Where did I learn that ???

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Loot

you may actually need to be able to read and comprehend what 100's of people have tested and not throw random quotes from lord knows where. I trust what you think of loot scaling as much as I trust a all PUG group to be: friendly, and to accomplish a task as a team. BTW thats none at all.

from the devs themselves

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...19&postcount=1

when i quote i actually quote the source sorry for forgetting the linkie